A very disheartening conversation

[Hans Weilenmann]

Mark,

If this was a prevailing attitude among young or beginning tiers, I too would find it disheartening. I believe it is an exception, and cannot really feel too concerned. I wish the person well - and know he has chosen a hard path. Individual choice

For me flytying is standing on the shoulders of giants who walked the path before us. Re-inventing the wheel time and time again is not how I see overall, nor personal, development. Master the techniques, understand the materials, and build on them - enough fuel for my creative tendencies.

Cheers,
Hans W

[Johnno]

I think this threads origins lay in philosophy. Everyone has a different way of doing things whatever it may be and this dude's way of learning or thinking abut fly tying is merely his way. Who are we to say its arrogant or wrong?

I'm 48 and have been tying flies since I was 11. I am sure I am just a pup compared to many others here. But back then in the mid 70's the internet was the thing of science fiction and all we had was books. And fishing clubs if there was one around. I was "self taught" from the point of view that I had a small cheapish "flytying 101" type book. All I had. For many years. I had no way of getting to a fly tying demo or go to a fishing club - family circumstances couldn't accomodate that.

I am sure I'm not the only one in such a situation. It was trial and error and I think the first time I actually watched someone else tie flies was when I was around 15 - 16. A few "aha" moments!!! But I taught myself to whip finish, taught myself to tie quill wings onto a dry fly (An art btw that I think is quietly being lost thanks to the host of newer materials that make quill wings almost obsolete.) and taught myself all sorts of things. I didn't know proportions (for whatever thats worth) or what the "ideal" look was, having to rely on my own thoughts and perceptions. The basics (and not quite so basics) I taught myself from referring to that one little book are still with me tens of thousands of flies later.

To be honest, since the age of 11 I think I may have watched perhaps only 5 or 6 tiers tie flies. And not trying to be arrogant or to blow my own trumpet, but I could teach them far more than they could teach me. And in fact for a couple I did.

In saying that, I was annoyed I didn't have the opportunity to be at the FF Conclave here in NZ last year to see Hans tie. That would have been something.

The main rule of fly tying is that there are no rules. There is no "ideal" hackle length or tail length or body shape or colour etc. It's up to the way each of us interprets what we want to achieve, how that end result works for what we want to do and how we develop it further. So, I can understand this blokes thoughts - his philosophy - if you like - to tie flies unencumbered by other ideas and come up with his own.. Probably it won't be new or original but maybe it will. And he will derive some sort of satisfaction from doing so.

I have very little opportunity to watch others tie fies or have others watch me, so I rely on a slow dialup internet and sites like this. And a fishing library.

[Roadkill]

I think Hans has it nailed. And like Johnno I started at 10 with a 4 page instruction sheet in my kit and about 2 hours of instruction in my first year of tying from a fellow flyfisherman who worked with my father. He gave me a better vise than my stamped and riveted kit vise I worked on for months and taught me to dub bodies and how to make my own dubbing. I still treasure both of my first vises.The second lesson months later was how to wind a hackle for a dry fly even though you couldn't buy a decent one by todays standards within a hundred miles. Herters catalogue was the local fly shop. It was probably over 20 years later that I first saw someone else tie. Most of my inspiration came in the early 60s from sporting magazines like Field and Stream and Outdoor Life. In the early 70s I went to college and found my first tying and pattern book. I would have gladly traded 20+ years of creative for one day at an Expo.

But I am shocked when I read that someone else stole my creative flies Centuries ago. How did they do that?

[Soft-hackle]

Johnno,
I am not criticizing his method, but I feel he is missing an awful lot, not only in the tying process, but in the human and creative aspects of this art. I live for the interaction I have with others regarding all my artwork, not only my fly tying. Without that, the art becomes stale. I agree that one can learn by themselves, but there seems to be SO much lost in secluding oneself or cutting oneself off from what is going on around them. To be truly creative, one must embrace that, not hide from it. That is the disheartening thing about this.

I am my own worst critic when it comes to my art. I am never ever completely satisfied with what I've done, therefore I continue to pursue, to work, to create. That puts meaning into what I do.

Mark

[Otter]

Hi Mark

Fly tying is many things to many people, ranging from the artistic to the realistic to plain old functional and that is one big spectrum of possibilities.

I can understand that someone may like to develop their own techniques but find it highly unlikely that he can avoid seeing techniques and styles etc on the internet, so in a sense he is simply figuring it out without actually watching someone else. A tough way to go about it but should he succeed then he will probably more deeply understand techniques and materials then half of us put to-gether but one way or another he will be influenced by other tiers. Learning and sharing is surely what drives most anglers and tiers - a fiver says he joins in someday !!!!

I have one quirk, I refuse to fish another tiers flies - i will fish ones that i have copied and tied myself and have stuck to that pretty rigidly since I tied my first fly ( there are a lot of happy fish as a result ) - I am sure that we all here have our little quirks and nuances so i would say good luck to him, following the masses is not always the best route.

[willowhead]

Vivki, in the music we say, "see with these.....(i point to me ears), and hear with these".....(i point to my eyes).....it is the same in fly tying if you can understand that. You must intuitively use all your senses to do more than they are generally acustomed to doing.....and to work together on a higher level than the average daily task may take. In other words.....you must "go beyond."
When Trane (John Coltrane) went back and studied Sidney Bechet.....it was to get a more fully encompasing graps on his playing and his life and the intstrument and sound and technique and music and the messege and more. Not any single one thing, but the entire scope of "why" he was doing what he was doing, and "why" he did it, the way he did it. So that he would be better able to convey the truth.
Is not every cast you make, an act of faith.....?
Just as in the music.....constant anticipation.

Mark.....i am exactly the same way and have come to terms with the fact that it's just the way things are......and that's ok. What the hell would you do if you ever tyed a perfect fly...........but then again.....when your releasing the fish that just took your fly.....it's perfect.

[Soft-hackle]

Mark,
The artistic mind and how it approaches things is often misunderstood. Most people are left brain dominant, while others tap into their right brain and are more artistic. Whether a visual artist, a musician, a dancer, a poet-the use of ALL your senses (and we have many more than the five known senses) if used merged together, (a synaesthetic approach) yields SO much more insight to things and a better fundamental understanding of that which is studied.

This is a very interesting thread in the responses that it has generated.

Mark

[willowhead]

Mark, we had a CFTG meeting once where our then President (Floyd Frankie, one of the best all-round tyers i have ever known), ran a program for the months meeting where he challanged all of us to tye a fly and do our best, (with some kinna prize or whatever) using only 1. material. Then he proceeded to hand each of us, a Turkey feather. But before all that he gave us a little talk about how some folks think vertically and some think horizontally and what's up with that and all the differences. Floyd was a school teacher and administrator before he retired. He was also the head honcho of the FFF's Certified Casting Program for a number of years and an instructor at the Wulff School. This cat could do it all.....and do it WELL! He had a stroke a few years ago and is now unable to tye anymore.....really sad. But he can still cast and fish and teach......so all is not lost. In fact nowdays, when he shows up at meetings or get-togethers, he has this device he keeps hidden in his pocket.....and it lets out certain sounds every now and a again............then you just "watch"............ .............rotf

We visit Floyd and Bert (Roberta his wife) all the time.....he's been a way serious mentor to both of us for years.....without him, my wife could of never got her FFF Certification. They live a mile or so from us in Roscoe. Poul Jorgensen was his mentor in fly tying.....ask him bout that sometime.

[Otter]

You got to think outside the box and be creative, so heres my fly testing setup



I decided that that blue critter didnt look like a trout so had to come up with something else. The original was created on a hook for a mad lure swap, and this one as a little prize on another forum for best SBS contributor - okay I know a tackle voucher would have been better



For me, I see the real art of fly dressing in subtle little flies like these harmless creations below, whilst visually maybe barely appealing to the human eye and not ones to be displayed, they in their design, dressing and use will be the culmination of many art forms and many many influences.









In my view creativity in fly dressing has many guises and visually pleasing attributes is merely one of them. Engineering & design which embelish the structural and material elements and their application, are also the results of creative thinking. How you view the importance of any elements of our craft depend entirely on what you seek.

[narcodog]

Mike has stated what I was trying to say. You have to have a basis for whatever you want to accomplish. If it weren't why do we have schools. I think the guy is a little egotistical.