FLYMPH FORUM

Howdy All;

Please pardon my intrusion into what is a very interesting conversation.
I've held back on asking a question. I've been waiting for the swing to come and include it.
I read where, and it was only briefly, the terms of stained or off colored water..... Yep, has a impact on the variations used.

Yet no one has mentioned the effects of the river/lake/pond/body of water's bottom and the various odd bits of things
(turbidity), have upon the way the light is reflected back towords the surface and how that inturn bounces the light rays all over the place
and it's effects on the coloring of the bug or fly.
So far, mostly, the talk has had to do with the light from above. Or at least that is the gist of what I understand from what I've read.

Perhaps ya'll can help re-direct some illumination in that direction as well ????? I've never been one to anyalize much of what I do from day to day
let alone approach fishin' (fly or otherwise), with that amount of intensity...

Thanks for your musings...

hank

Got a few more e-mails on this. The most relevant studies are these;

1). Avery, J. A. et al. (1983) Ultraviolet sensitive receptors in a freshwater fish. Journal of Physiology, London, 334, 23P.

2). Harosi, F. I. & Hashimoto, Y. (1983) Ultraviolet visual pigment in a vertebrate: a tretrachromatic cone system in the Dace. Science, 222, 1021-1023.

3). Bowmaker, J. K. & Kunz, Y. W. (1987) Ultraviolet receptors, tetrachromatic colour vision and retinal mosaics in the brown trout (Salmo trutta): Age-dependent changes. Vision Research, 27, 2101-2108.

4). Rick, I. P. et al. (2008). Males do not see only in red: UV wavelengths and male territorial aggression in the three-spined stickleback (Gasterosteus aculeatus). Naturwissenschaften, 95, 631-638.

5). Rick, I. P. & Bakker, T. C. M. (2008). UV wavelengths make female three-spined sticklebacks (Gastrosteus aculeatus) more attractive for males. Behavioural Ecology and Sociobiology, 62: 439-445.

6). Browman, H. I. et al. (1994). Ultraviolet photoreception contributes to prey search behaviour in two species of zooplanktivorous fishes. Journal of Experiment Biology. 186, 187-198.

7) Rocco et al. (2002).How much does ultraviolet radiation contribute to the feeding performance of rainbow trout, Oncorhynchus mykiss, juveniles under natural illumination? Environmental Biology of Fishes, 63, 223-228.

8) Leech, D. M. & Johnsen, S. (2006). Ultraviolet vision and foraging in juvenile bluegill (Lepomis macrochirus). Canadian Journal of Fisheries and Aquatic Science. 63, 2183-2190.

9) Boulcott, P. & Braithwaite, V. (2005). Ultraviolet light and visual behaviour in the three-spined stickleback, Gasterosteus aculeatus. Physiological and Biochemical Zoology, 78, 736-743.

10) Modarressie, R. & Bakker, T. C. M. (2007). A limited role for ultraviolet radiation when three-spine sticklebacks (Gasterosteus aculeatus) prey upon daphnia. Canadian Journal of Fisheries an Aquatic Science, 64, 1573-1580.

11) Loew, E. R. et al. (1993). A chromatic action spectrum for planktonic predation by juvenile yellow perch. Canadian Journal of Zoology, 71, 384-386.

12) Leech, D. M et al. (200). UV-enhanced fish predation and the differential migration of zooplankton in response to UV radiation and fish. Limnology and Oceanography, 54, 1152-1161.

13) Allison, W. T. et al. (2006). Degeneration and regeneration of ultraviolet cone photoreceptors during development in rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss). Journal of Comparative Neurology, 499, 702-715.

14) Cheng, C. L. & Flamarique, I. N. (2007). Chromatic organization of cone photoreceptors in the retina of rainbow trout: single cones irreversibly switch from UV (SWS1) to blue (SWS2) light sensitive opsin during natural development. Journal of Experimental Biology, 210, 4123-4135.

15) Cheng, et al. (2009). Thyroid hormone induces a time-dependent opsin switch in the retina of Salmonid fishes. Investigative Ophthalmology and Vision Science, 50, 3024-3032.

16) Allison, W. T. et al. (2003) Ontogeny of ultraviolet-sensitive cones in the retina of rainbow trout. Journal of Neurology, 461, 294-306.

17) Hawryshyn, C. W. et al. (2003). Regeneration of ultraviolet-sensitive cones in the retinal cone mosaic of thyroxin-challenged post-juvenile rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss). Journal of Experiment Biology, 206, 2665-2673.

These are also the exact same studies quoted in the only other sensible piece I have seen on this matter;

http://turningoversmallstones.blogspot. ... trout.html

What conclusions people come to about various things and how they reach them is their own affair. I have given mine to the best of my ability, and if people disagree that's fine with me. You CAN NOT change my mind or force me to agree on something without offering positive proof of your ideas on the matter, and if these are valid I will accept them without demur. It would be foolish to do otherwise.

It basically makes no difference to me, I am only interested in the facts. I do what I do to improve my own fishing. If some of it helps to improve yours that's fine. If you violently disagree with it then just ignore it. Arguing against it wont change my mind and it wont catch you any more fish!

TL
MC

hankaye wrote:Howdy All;

Please pardon my intrusion into what is a very interesting conversation.
I've held back on asking a question. I've been waiting for the swing to come and include it.
I read where, and it was only briefly, the terms of stained or off colored water..... Yep, has a impact on the variations used.

Yet no one has mentioned the effects of the river/lake/pond/body of water's bottom and the various odd bits of things
(turbidity), have upon the way the light is reflected back towords the surface and how that inturn effects the coloring of the bug or fly.
So far, mostly, the talk has had to do with the light from above. Or at least that is the gist of what I understand from what I've read.

Perhaps ya'll can help re-direct some illumination in that direction as well ????? I've never been one to anyalize much of what I do from day to day
let alone approach fishin' (fly or otherwise), with that amount of intensity...

Thanks for your musings...

hank

In terms of UV light even light turbidity blocks it completely. ( This also means that fluorescent materials don't work in turbid water because there is no UV light to activate them). In terms of normal daylight it may be blocked almost completely by turbid water or the water acts as a filter and reduces the amount or type of light.

There is light reflection from various surfaces beneath the water. If you look at a silver tinsel bodied fly on the surface of clear shallow water above a patch of green weed then the body of the fly looks green, because it reflects the green light from the weed.

There are very many possibilities here all dependent on the factors concerned but as they all affect natural flies then they also affect artificial flies. This is also why it would be nice to have materials with similar properties to the natural flies, as they then behave in the same way regardless of other factors.

TL
MC

What would then be a good dressing of an emerging Baetis Rhodani, for instance? And the dun? Firmly rooted in experience.

dd

I have never done any good with emergers for Large Dark Olives so I can't recommend one. A hare's ear might work. I usually go from the nymphs straight to duns. For the nymphs I use a hare' s ear nymph with a light coloured abdomen and a dark brown thorax, ( adult LDO nymphs have a darker thorax). For duns a Greenwell's Glory but with waterhen fibres for the wing(s) and a small thorax of hare fur. A Gold Ribbed Hare's Ear sometimes works better, also with waterhen wings. For drowned duns a Waterhen Bloa. I have never seen many spinners on the water so don't bother with a pattern for them. The LDO spinners do crawl under water to deposit their eggs, but I have never done any good with artificials of this stage. I would stick with a Waterhen Bloa if I thought there were a lot of spinners around.

TL
MC

This is the type of fly I would normally use for LDO's. I looked but I don't seem to have any pictures saved. These are from Otter, but they are the same as the ones I use;

http://www.flymphforum.com/viewtopic.ph ... ing#p12743

TL
MC

I have used Bob wyatts DHE with some success for LDO emergers, light hare abdomen, dark hare thorax - but found that nymphs worked much better by a factor of at least 2 if not 3 to 1. For the nymphs the hares ear as described by Mike works well and I found that a Copper John does just as well on most occasions.

Incidentally, an injured blackbird was on the deck at the back of my house this morning. The kids placed it in a box, alas it has since expired. I know most of you will think me a wimp but ever since a childhood incident involving a deceased cat, I have a phobia about going near dead/dying birds or animals. My wife has been advised that she has some work to do when I get home this evening.

Mike, Otter, what colour thread do you use for these patterns? Silk or synthetics? With translucency in mind silk might be preferred - not?

For duns a Greenwell's Glory but with waterhen fibres for the wing(s) and a small thorax of hare fur.

Like this one?

For drowned duns a Waterhen Bloa.

I would stick with a Waterhen Bloa if I thought there were a lot of spinners around.

Waterhen Bloa for drowned duns/spinners. What colour yellow silk; number 3, 4 or 5 of the Pearsall's shades (not neccessarily being that silk)?

dd

daringduffer wrote:Mike, Otter, what colour thread do you use for these patterns? Silk or synthetics? With translucency in mind silk might be preferred - not?

For duns a Greenwell's Glory but with waterhen fibres for the wing(s) and a small thorax of hare fur.

Like this one?

For drowned duns a Waterhen Bloa.

I would stick with a Waterhen Bloa if I thought there were a lot of spinners around.

Waterhen Bloa for drowned duns/spinners. What colour yellow silk; number 3, 4 or 5 of the Pearsall's shades (not neccessarily being that silk)?

dd

Any bright yellow silk will do, primrose or more or less any shade of bright yellow it doesn't really matter much,(the brighter the yellow the more olive it turns),waxed with clear wax ( either beeswax or tying wax, both work). The wax turns the silk a translucent olive. If you want to "shape" a body ( good on some large nymphs), then use some bright yellow floss silk and wax it, you can form this to whatever taper you want. You have to do this carefully, pulling the floss against the wax in one directions only,or it will shred the floss. Just about any wax will work but of course will give different shades of olive. It doesn't seem to matter much to the fish as long as the body appears translucent, although coloured waxes will of course affect the colour.

TL
MC

Thank you, Mike.

I have another question; do you believe that there is any difference in the importance of colour and degree of translucence to trout (positioned close to surface) and grayling (close to the bottom)?

dd