FLYMPH FORUM

OK, I know this site is about wingless wets, but doubtless some of you use wings on some things, and you also use various wing feathers as hackles, so this may be of help to you.

Over the years, many people have asked me questions in various places, and many of them recur constantly. This is of course because every new fly-dresser is faced with very similar problems. Here is a common question about using various wing feathers, especially the primary and secondary flight feathers for wing slips etc;

QUOTE
Last time I tried to remove feathers from wings I just destroyed some of them. When you buy them the quills are undamaged. I have 2 turkey wings I want to remove the feathers from. How do you do it with out damage to the quills or barbs???
UNQUOTE

The feathers are only relatively easy to remove on fresh wings. On older wings you need some preparation, this is because the quill sockets have dried out and shrunk, soak the wings in hand hot soapy water for ( at least) ten minutes. This loosens the quills. Most feathers will then come out easily. Hold the wing flat on a solid surface and clamp it with your hand. Grasp the quill at the base of the feather with pointed nose pliers to remove it.Once removed, rinse thoroughly and allow to dry.

If the wing feather fibres have been disturbed by removal, simply agitating them in warm water will usually restore them, and then simply allow them to dry naturally.Paired quills should be matched and packaged as soon as they are dry.The SAME primary or secondary flight feather, from right and left wings, are usually pretty good matches. This gives you better and more uniform slip wings, and also avoids wastage, as you may need to take slips from various areas on unmatched pairs to get a good slip match! This can result in wasting half or more of each feather!!! Also, slips taken from various parts of the feather have varying curves and elastic modulus, which can ( WILL!) result in unbalanced wings.This can be very bad indeed on non paired feathers with graduated shades and markings. I don't suppose the fish actually care much, but some fly-dressers might!

Just as an added note, in order to avoid wasting such wing feathers, I often use the "remains" after making matched wing slips, for single or double rolled wings. Any of them may be used for bunch wings of course. ( Which is what they all eventually devolve into anyway, and then they catch more fish!!!). You can also use small bunches of wing feather fibres for hackles.

The only other method for removing feathers which works reliably on dried out wings, is to bend the feather at the base until it is at a right angle to the wing, and cut it close to the base. This has to be done with care of course, but it works well enough.There is no advantage in keeping the quill portion of the feather intact. The "Quill" is only the base of the feather, properly known as the Calamus;




For optimal results, and damage avoidance, start removing the undercoverts first with the wing held upper side down, and starting from the outside, ( primary side) of the wing ( Remove the feathers from the underside). This is to expose the bases of the primaries and secondaries, and avoid damage. Of course, you may wish to use the undercoverts for something as well. The "Satins" ( Greater undercoverts) on duck wings are very useful on a lot of flies.

This is a Mallard underwing;



These are the feather positions involved;




TL
MC

I find this to be an extremely valuable post. Best summary I have seen. Thanks Mike.

As with all of the info supplied by you Mike, this is excellent.

Mike Connor;

THANKS MIKE !

You consistantly show-up with solid information ...
good for us newbies and the been ere awhile crowd.
Playin' the newbie card here once again ...

hank

Thank you for the info Mark.

Strange then that we keep calling it "Quill body" flies.

The actual quill is not used. It is either a wing fiber or a hackle stem for example. Am I right?

The reason I ask is the fly I tied recently that was ribbed with a heron wing fiber. (http://www.flymphforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2345). Initially I wrote ribbed with Heron quill but changed it to "wing fiber".

/Martin

You are correct. The term "quill" is traditional for a few things, and widely used, but incorrect.

TL
MC

As long as we're talking about wings, without being able to get at the flesh or any meat that may be on the wings how can we treat these wings so as to avoid the foul odor?

Regards, Jerry

Cool stuff Mike.....i recently did a complete set of Turkey wings.....paired and matched every single feather off those two wings.........BOY that was a job.......took two nights work.....but it was well worth it. i've got a crap load of wing sets to do yet. Lots of dyed Silver Pheasants and other pheasants, ducks (dyed and natural Mallard wing sets) of all kinds, and all kinds of other birds.....waterfowl and gamebirds. Thankx for the great info as always.

Jerry G wrote:As long as we're talking about wings, without being able to get at the flesh or any meat that may be on the wings how can we treat these wings so as to avoid the foul odor?

Regards, Jerry

You need to prepare the wings and other stuff properly. Otherwise you will have problems, the same problem arises with stuff like poorly prepared hares masks etc. These can stink to high heaven and contaminate other stuff. The only way to stop stuff stinking is to prepare it properly and then dry it out completely.

The very best way to do this is to remove the feathers you want and discard the rest. If you want to keep whole wings or stuff like hare masks etc;

When you first obtain the wings ( if you obtain them yourself), you should cut the wing off as close as possible to where it joins the body. Then wash the whole thing in very hot soapy water. Swish it about.This will remove any blood, feather mites, ticks, and other bugs. Rinse very thoroughly. Now let the wings dry for while, and then place them in a warm dry place, or in a dessicator box. This is just an airtight box with silica gel. This extracts all the moisture. Without moisture the material can not rot, and is basically mummified. You can get the gel here;

http://www.jakesmp.com/csd_silica_gel/c ... 013_m.html

most flower shops will have it, it is also used for drying flowers. You can use it over and over again, to rejuvenate it, put it in the oven at 150°C for three hours and it is ready for use again.

But this is the same stuff, I collect it from various packaging etc and a few stores also save it for me, I have about a hundred pounds of it collected like this. It is otherwise usually thrown away. If you ask at an electronics store or a drugstore, they often have boxes full of it that they will give away;




Unless you remove ALL moisture from wings, skins etc, they will begin to rot and stink. Keeping things in a warm dry place away from bugs will also dry them out, but it takes longer and is also climate dependent. You must NEVER place anything in storage that is not completely dry, it will rot and stink. If you have something that is rotting and stinking, you need to soak it in hot vinegar solution, ( not boiling but close), and then proceed as described for fresh material. If the rot has gone too far and the material is falling apart, it is best to discard it. You can save feathers and treat them as described but loose fur is usually useless and difficult to clean. You can do it if you want to, but it is not usually worth the bother.

Some more info on silica gel;

The various dry shake products for drying flies etc are mostly hydrophobic fumed silica (Cab-o-Sil TS-720). These dry and waterproof the fly, because of the hydrophobic powder material in the substance.

You can buy reasonable amounts of this here;

http://www.epoxyproducts.com/f_mixin.html

QUOTE
Recently we've had lots of 1 quart purchases of our hydrophobic (water repelling) fumed silica. We thought this odd as the shipping on one quart is about as much as the product. Turns out that fly-fisherman have been using it (successfully, we assume) to 'dip' their flies into so that they 'act' more like real insects on the surface of the water! A quart apparently is a lifetime supply. We're probably the only '1 quart source' anywhere. ----

"Paul, This is my 2nd order with your company... When a dry fly becomes waterlogged, I squeeze it between layers of an absorbent cloth, then apply the fumed silica with the brush working it into all parts of the fly. It then floats like new, if not better."

And another fly fisherman emailed me: "Well, I'll tell you, the 'right stuff' is magic for flies (and the wrong stuff, like cab-o-si M5 is a disaster!). It can dry out a soggy dry fly and float it better than a fresh one from your flybox. It's expecially useful for flies made from feathers or fur that can't be treated with our regular paste type flotants like silicones. And on subsurface flies, it adds a shine and a bubble layer that mimics the naturals as they are about to emerge. People say their treated flies are 2 to 3 times more effective.
But, you can't trust a flyfisherman any more than *any* fisherman, so you need to take that with a large grain of salt."

Scott (9/7/09) "I catch more fish with your product than anything else I've ever tried! Thanks!"

UNQUOTE

Info;

http://www.epoxyproducts.com/silica.html

If you just want to dry your flies really well, then get some silica gel. Practically any flower shop or chemist will have it, it is a drying agent used for drying flowers among other things. It is also used in small sachets to pack drugs and electronics in order to keep them dry in transit. Grind this up, in a coffee grinder or similar, and you have a pure drying agent. You can save your expensive dry-shake for flies you want to completely dry AND waterproof.
silgel
Silica gel is an amorphous form of silicon dioxide, which is synthetically produced in the form of hard irregular granules (having the appearance of crystals) or hard irregular beads. A microporous structure of interlocking cavities gives a very high surface area (800 square meters per gram). It is this structure that makes silica gel a high capacity desiccant. Water molecules adhere to the gels surface because it exhibits a lower vapour pressure than the surrounding air.

When an equilibrium of equal pressure is reached, no more adsorption occurs. Thus the higher the humidity of the surrounding air, the greater the amount of water that is adsorbed before equilibrium is reached. It is in these higher humidity conditions (above 50% Relative Humidity) that stored or in-transit items are susceptible to damage.

The beauty of silica gel is the physical adsorption of water vapour into its internal pores. There is no chemical reaction, no by-products or side effects. Even when saturated with water vapour, silica gel still has the appearance of a dry product, its shape unchanged.

Advantages of silica gel as a desiccant.

Silica gel has many other properties that recommend it as a desiccant.

- It will adsorb up to one third of its own weight in water vapour. This adsorption efficiency is approximately 35% greater than that of typical desiccant clays, making silica gel the preferred choice where weight or efficiency are important factors.
- It has an almost indefinite shelf life if stored in airtight conditions.
- It can be regenerated and reused if required. Gently heating silica gel
will drive off the adsorbed moisture and leave it ready for reuse. ( Twenty minutes at 100°C in an oven for small amounts. Longer for larger amounts, up to three´hours at 150"C).
- It is a very inert material, it will not normally attack or corrode other materials and with the exception of strong alkalis and hydrofluoric acid is itself resistant to attack.
- It is non-toxic and non-flammable.
- It is most frequently and conveniently used packed in a breathable sachet or bag. These are available in a wide range of sizes suitable for use with a wide range of applications.

Standard white silica gel is referred to as being non-indicating. As it adsorbs moisture it remains physically unchanged. Non-indicating silica gel is both cheap and effective, available loose in bulk packs or packed in sachets Self-indicating silica gels are coloured gels whose colour changes as they adsorb moisture.

It is often used for packing electronic equipment and similar to prevent damage by condensation. It is usually in small paper sachets in the packing boxes. If you ask at an electrical goods store or similar they may be able to give you a whole load of it, as they just throw it away. Silica gel is in the form of small spheres usually, to use this as a fly drying medium, just grind these up in a coffee grinder or similar, you can also crush it with a hammer, and put in an airtight container such as a 35mm film can. To dry your fly, just dip it in the powder and shake, the fly is dry almost immediately.

It is not a good idea to use silica gel in fly-boxes, because the gel will adsorb water from the surroundings, and may have the reverse effect to the one desired, holding moisture in your box. The best policy is to ensure your flies are perfectly dry before putting them back in the box. The best way to do this is to get a small plastic film canister with a snap on lid. Drill a series of holes with a small drill around the base, and around the upper rim. Drill a hole in the lid, pass a cord through it and knot it, and attach the other end to your vest or whatever. Used flies placed in this box dry perfectly, and relatively quickly. You cannot lose the flies ( flies tend to fall out of "drying-patches" and the like, especially barbless ones ! ), and your drying box may be emptied at the end of the day and the dry flies returned to the main box. This is the best way to dry flies I have yet discovered.

TL
MC

For SMALL bird wings, it is sufficient to dip the cut end of the wing in salt, and watch this for a few days, dipping again as necessary. Then wash and dry as described.

For animal skins ALL TRACES of flesh etc must be removed! Then the skin is sprinkled with salt, ( some people prefer borax, find this in the laundry department of your local supermarket), and kept in a dry place away from bugs etc. Check the skin at least twice a day and add salt if any wetness is showing. After a while the salt forms a dry crust on the skin. At this point you can wash the skin in very hot soapy water. Rinse very thoroughly and allow to dry naturally. This gives a dry skin with a texture like parchment. If you wish you can add a few crushed mothballs to the salt mix. DO NOT DRY SKINS OUTSIDE unless you know exactly what you are doing. They will be infected with bugs!

You can also smoke skins at low temperature for a few hours, this will also preserve the skin, ( as if you were COLD smoking meat or fish. HOT smoking is not suitable).

Commercial operations usually do all this in force drying ovens where warm dry air is blown over the skins. These will usually be tanned anyway. Tanning is a much more difficult process than curing with salt, which I have described above.

I hope that was sufficient information for you. If you have any questions or anything is not clear, then just ask.

TL
MC