Some soft hackles

[Mike Connor]

I would not even try fishing the majority of patterns I see here and in many other places. I don't know enough about them to make it worth bothering. They would not be as successful as the flies I use, all carefully designed and tested, some over many years. If people enjoy these things then that's fine, I have no problem with it, but I don't like to see fellow anglers misled, for whatever reason.

This forum enjoys a fair and quite widespread reputation as a collection of "soft hackle experts" and in my opinion it also has the responsibility of being honest. Most especially to beginners. There is more than enough bullshit in fly-fishing, there is no point at all in adding to it.

Most people who come here want to learn how to catch fish. A lot of this stuff is not going to help them in the slightest, quite the reverse, it actually seduces some in to making silly mistakes and wasting time and effort on stuff that will prevent them learning and from actually catching fish.

Just how it is, and in most other places as well. Not really a big deal in itself, but people need to be aware of it. How various people dress flies and fish is their own business, but that does not make it right to teach others how to do it badly or lull them with pleasant sounding and largely meaningless bullshit.

Oh well, whatever, I don't suppose it will change.

[Old Hat]

The emerger intrigues me. I see this design a lot and have tried it often but have never had any luck with it.

[tie2fish]

One of the many things I enjoy about this forum is the opportunity it provides to share new ideas and techniques without fear of public ridicule. Not that they don't sometimes deserve it, mind you ... I have frequently taken up space here with pictures of patterns that are far more an expression of artistic license than they are serious attempts to create a deadly fish catcher. However, the majority of members are either guilty of the same thing or too polite to disparage it, and we have a good time showing each other what our imaginations have been up to lately. Persons who truly wish to learn how to properly dress flies in a traditional, tested and proven manner ought better seek advice from a single recognized expert rather than by asking general questions on a public forum.

[hankaye]

Howdy All;

Our membership spreads far and wide, as do the various
types and styles of fishing. I'm still a newbie to fishing with a fly.
One thing that my Father once said (actually many times), was
that, "When you need some sound advise go ask an expert." I've
tried to follow that wherever I land, and I've ended up in many places
in my lifetime. I am aware that there are "General Rules" that one
might want to adhere to as far as trying to catch a fish. That certain
species tend to target certain patterns. Yet as the bugs they eat sort of
change a bit as they are found in different areas, and each of us 'see'
things differently, I feel that a local opinion (something everyone has),
is a good indicator of what may or may not be an effective pattern to
use during any particular day or time of year. As Wayne pointed out,
when this time of year arrives he is less inclined to use the black patterns
due to those critters not being in a large number. Local knowledge gained through
experience. If he feels that the black patterns would reasonably replicate the bugs
the fish are eating then they might just be the hot pattern that day or for a certain
specified period of time. Be it days weeks or a season.
Really, it all boils down to OPINIONS. We all have one, and none of us should allow
someone else’s' to cause us to become upset. I've come to realize that the space between my
ears is the most valuable rental space in the universe. I ain't goin' to allow anyone to live
there rent free, and that's what we do when we allow someone else to cause us to become upset.
Stepin' down from my soap box now.

hank

[JohnP]

Well, here we go again.

[William Anderson]

Boris, as an administrator I want you to know how nice it is to see your flies, each one a perfect killer in the right time an place, and I too would fish any of these with a high expectation of doing very well under the right circumstances. I appreciate you sharing these and look forward to seeing many more of the flies you enjoy and the fine rods you use to deliver them. The pics of your fantastic catches with your custom rods are beautiful. Your talent as a builder is no doubt matched by your abilities on the stream. Very cool post. I hate to see the joy of discussing the things we enjoy so much be sidetracked. It's a nice thing to have you sharing the scope of the sport you bring to the table. Thanks for contributing to this group.

Well, here we go again.

This forum does in fact enjoy an expressly stated freedom to explore the fundamentals, as well as the margins of fishing and tying in general. Maybe more importantly we enjoy a degree of helpful feedback and encouragement, as well as sound and meaningful exchange. As a part of the leadership on this forum, I have noticed a stated and implied lenience, allowing some discourse to play itself out, expecting a sort of self-correction to bring the level of discussion to a place of mutual respect and general enjoyment in participation. It's a joy to be here. It's fun. It should be.

This is a generous and well intentioned group as well as having earned a reputation for sharing openly and giving much. When the atmosphere becomes stained, as it does from time to time, it's important to clear the air, and remind ourselves that the most important function of this forum is to provide a safe and enjoyable place to explore, share and learn, sometimes fundamentals, but also the fun extras, free of charge, and without rebuff. Catching fish is fun, but doesn't even appear in the top priorities here. Building a community that entertains veterans, broadens our involvement and encourages newer fly-fisherman is the goal.

I'll address this again elsewhere, but the joy of participating here is one that I and most everyone here takes seriously. It's fun to share. It always will be here.

Thanks so much to this wonderful group for allowing me to be a part.

w

[Mike Connor]

I was in no way criticising Boris' flies, or trying to insult or upset anybody, I was trying to point out that it is in my opinion not a good idea to divorce flies from their usage. One can look at many flies and simply guess from their appearance what they might be used for, however, not many beginners can do this, and even very experienced people may not know what some things are supposed to do. Also, even though one might guess what a fly could be used for there is no way to know that it will work well or under what circumstances. It may be successful for something or it may not. Practically anything will catch a fish under some circumstance or other. But only really good flies will catch fish consistently under specific circumstances, and only when those circumstances are known. There are millions of fly patterns out there, a very large percentage of them are more or less useless, because they don't work well even when used properly. It makes no difference what they look like, how they work is the important thing, and knowing when and how to use them. Even apparently minor things can make a fly a good fly, or a bad fly. Wrapping various materials around a hook without knowing why just tends to produce more such flies. Most will work under some circumstance or other, but rarely consistently, and the circumstances in question are difficult to determine.

Telling a beginner to "have confidence" is absolutely pointless. Before you can have confidence in anything at all you need to at least know that it works and under what circumstances.

For beginners the major problem is the lack of information. Many have large boxes of flies but no idea at all when or how to use them. Coupled with this,many flies will not work well, or even at all, when fished incorrectly or at the wrong time. Most of my really deadly flies only work in very specific circumstances and are quite useless at other times and when they work they have to be fished in a specific way. The chance of a beginner picking the "right" fly from a box full, ( even assuming he has such a fly) at the right time and under the right circumstances, and then using it correctly is too remote to even calculate.

For flies to work properly one must know when and how to use them. Making up flies by sitting at the vice and choosing various materials that look good is not "fly design" it is just playing around. Might well be fun and interesting, but it will not catch you many fish. Telling people that they have produced "good flies" like this ( regardless of the technical aspects of fly-dressing which are in any case largely irrelevant) is just wrong. There is also often a huge discrepancy between what some consider "good". Some are obviously happy if they catch a fish now and then on one of their own flies. That is not "good". If you try long enough you can catch a fish on more or less anything that even remotely resembles a fly. The single reason why so many people don't catch much is because they don't know when or how to use their flies, and the flies themselves are often unsuitable for the way they are trying to fish them. It makes no difference at all what those flies look like. Even if you have the best flies in the world in your box they will be useless unless you use them properly and at the right time. Trying loads of things to see what might work is just pure chance and unlikely to succeed, although it sometimes will, which is the only reason some people catch a fish at all.

It is very bad advice to anybody at all to fill up their boxes with flies they know absolutely nothing about, regardless of how those flies look. by doing so you have seriously decreased that person's chances of catching fish.

[Mike Connor]

One of the many things I enjoy about this forum is the opportunity it provides to share new ideas and techniques without fear of public ridicule. Not that they don't sometimes deserve it, mind you ... I have frequently taken up space here with pictures of patterns that are far more an expression of artistic license than they are serious attempts to create a deadly fish catcher. However, the majority of members are either guilty of the same thing or too polite to disparage it, and we have a good time showing each other what our imaginations have been up to lately. Persons who truly wish to learn how to properly dress flies in a traditional, tested and proven manner ought better seek advice from a single recognized expert rather than by asking general questions on a public forum.

If you want to produce flies like that, why not? Obviously quite a few enjoy doing so, and the technical standards of dressing are very high in general. That is not the point, and doesn't actually matter much in terms of catching fish anyway. You and others doubtless enjoy this aspect, and that is fine AS LONG AS YOU DON'T MISLEAD OTHERS INTO THINKING THAT IS THE WAY TO CATCH FISH!

Telling beginners that they have produced something "good" makes them think that they will catch fish on that fly. They are not playing around at the vice for fun, or using "artistic licence", like you, they are trying to learn how to catch fish. They are absolutely baffled when it doesn't work, because the "experts" at the flymph forum said it was a good fly that they would fish confidently. That is pure bullshit and extremely misleading.

Flies don't catch fish by themselves. You need to know when, where and how to use them, and they must be designed to do what you want them to do. Random efforts at the vice will not work for that, and it is completely irrelevant what they look like, how technically correct, or how artistic they are. They simply will not work very well, if at all.

Flies themselves are generally useless, even "good" ones. It is how they are used which makes them successful. A good angler can take a few flies and catch a lot of fish on them, BECAUSE HE KNOWS EXACTLY WHEN AND HOW TO USE THEM. Unless you know that it makes no difference at all what you use, you wont catch much if indeed anything at all.

[hankaye]

Mike Connor, Howdy;

One of the many things I enjoy about this forum is the opportunity it provides to share new ideas and techniques without fear of public ridicule. Not that they don't sometimes deserve it, mind you ... I have frequently taken up space here with pictures of patterns that are far more an expression of artistic license than they are serious attempts to create a deadly fish catcher. However, the majority of members are either guilty of the same thing or too polite to disparage it, and we have a good time showing each other what our imaginations have been up to lately. Persons who truly wish to learn how to properly dress flies in a traditional, tested and proven manner ought better seek advice from a single recognized expert rather than by asking general questions on a public forum.

If you want to produce flies like that, why not? Obviously quite a few enjoy doing so, and the technical standards of dressing are very high in general. That is not the point, and doesn't actually matter much in terms of catching fish anyway. You and others doubtless enjoy this aspect, and that is fine AS LONG AS YOU DON'T MISLEAD OTHERS INTO THINKING THAT IS THE WAY TO CATCH FISH!

Telling beginners that they have produced something "good" makes them think that they will catch fish on that fly. They are not playing around at the vice for fun, or using "artistic licence", like you, they are trying to learn how to catch fish. They are absolutely baffled when it doesn't work, because the "experts" at the flymph forum said it was a good fly that they would fish confidently. That is pure bullshit and extremely misleading.

Flies don't catch fish by themselves. You need to know when, where and how to use them, and they must be designed to do what you want them to do. Random efforts at the vice will not work for that, and it is completely irrelevant what they look like, how technically correct, or how artistic they are. They simply will not work very well, if at all.

Flies themselves are generally useless, even "good" ones. It is how they are used which makes them successful. A good angler can take a few flies and catch a lot of fish on them, BECAUSE HE KNOWS EXACTLY WHEN AND HOW TO USE THEM. Unless you know that it makes no difference at all what you use, you wont catch much if indeed anything at all.

Your last 2 paragraphs are very negative in tone and were I just approaching fly fishing would probably turn away had I read them then. I realize that you
have been a serious student of fishing and fly fishing in particular since you were a youth and you have formed some opinions about the how’s when’s and what’s
to employ where. So I don't wish to debate these things. I'd end up as a smoking hole in the Earth.
Some of are coming to the fly side later in life and appreciate the positive feedback (yea, I know most of my attempts at tying create a huge vacuum). I'm far
from being what is known as a bleeding hear liberal and don't sing nor do I hum “Com-by-yea” ... in idle moments. Don't know the words... and I’m not a hummer of tunes nor a singer.
Were you to offer some form of positive message like an example once in awhile of how to something properly (in your opinion), rather than saying why things won't work (again in your opinion), folks in general might respond in a less (appearance wise), combative attitude. You know the old saw about sugar and vinegar. I think it works as well with humans as it does with flys.

hank

[Mike Connor]

Mike Connor, Howdy;

One of the many things I enjoy about this forum is the opportunity it provides to share new ideas and techniques without fear of public ridicule. Not that they don't sometimes deserve it, mind you ... I have frequently taken up space here with pictures of patterns that are far more an expression of artistic license than they are serious attempts to create a deadly fish catcher. However, the majority of members are either guilty of the same thing or too polite to disparage it, and we have a good time showing each other what our imaginations have been up to lately. Persons who truly wish to learn how to properly dress flies in a traditional, tested and proven manner ought better seek advice from a single recognized expert rather than by asking general questions on a public forum.

If you want to produce flies like that, why not? Obviously quite a few enjoy doing so, and the technical standards of dressing are very high in general. That is not the point, and doesn't actually matter much in terms of catching fish anyway. You and others doubtless enjoy this aspect, and that is fine AS LONG AS YOU DON'T MISLEAD OTHERS INTO THINKING THAT IS THE WAY TO CATCH FISH!

Telling beginners that they have produced something "good" makes them think that they will catch fish on that fly. They are not playing around at the vice for fun, or using "artistic licence", like you, they are trying to learn how to catch fish. They are absolutely baffled when it doesn't work, because the "experts" at the flymph forum said it was a good fly that they would fish confidently. That is pure bullshit and extremely misleading.

Flies don't catch fish by themselves. You need to know when, where and how to use them, and they must be designed to do what you want them to do. Random efforts at the vice will not work for that, and it is completely irrelevant what they look like, how technically correct, or how artistic they are. They simply will not work very well, if at all.

Flies themselves are generally useless, even "good" ones. It is how they are used which makes them successful. A good angler can take a few flies and catch a lot of fish on them, BECAUSE HE KNOWS EXACTLY WHEN AND HOW TO USE THEM. Unless you know that it makes no difference at all what you use, you wont catch much if indeed anything at all.

Your last 2 paragraphs are very negative in tone and were I just approaching fly fishing would probably turn away had I read them then. I realize that you
have been a serious student of fishing and fly fishing in particular since you were a youth and you have formed some opinions about the how’s when’s and what’s
to employ where. So I don't wish to debate these things. I'd end up as a smoking hole in the Earth.
Some of are coming to the fly side later in life and appreciate the positive feedback (yea, I know most of my attempts at tying create a huge vacuum). I'm far
from being what is known as a bleeding hear liberal and don't sing nor do I hum “Com-by-yea” ... in idle moments. Don't know the words... and I’m not a hummer of tunes nor a singer.
Were you to offer some form of positive message like an example once in awhile of how to something properly (in your opinion), rather than saying why things won't work (again in your opinion), folks in general might respond in a less (appearance wise), combative attitude. You know the old saw about sugar and vinegar. I think it works as well with humans as it does with flys.

hank

All I ever do is offer practical examples that work, it is not my problem if people ignore them or don't believe them.

What I wrote here are not opinions. They are simple facts, whether people accept them or not is also not my problem.

It is also irrelevant to me when people become combative, I don't care, and it wont change the facts either. I know some people believe some things very firmly and even get annoyed when they think something is being challenged, also not my problem. I don't "believe" anything at all, I only work on facts. I KNOW what I am talking about and how to do it. What others believe or do is their own affair. I don't much care whether people accept what I write or not, it makes no difference at all to me but it might well make a big difference to them.