No Wing, But ...

[Mike Connor]

No apology required, easy to get mixed up with some of these things. I was ready to believe it was a very well marked mottled hen saddle. I have seen some that looked amazingly like partridge.

Another problem is that "greenwell" (light furnace), is a colour and not a breed of poultry etc. So any feather which does not have a dark list and ginger/brown tips is not a greenwell. Even though the saddle may have come from a bird with a "greenwell" neck.

Not a big deal, as I wrote it just set me wondering.

TL
MC

[tie2fish]

The semantic fact that "greenwell" is a color rather than a breed is interesting to say the least, as that term is frequently interpreted here to mean the feathers from a bird with cape feathers having a black rachis and honey gold tips on the barbs. How ought we describe the saddle feathers from such a bird ... simply as mottled brown hen?

[Mike Connor]

The semantic fact that "greenwell" is a color rather than a breed is interesting to say the least, as that term is frequently interpreted here to mean the feathers from a bird with cape feathers having a black rachis and honey gold tips on the barbs. How ought we describe the saddle feathers from such a bird ... simply as mottled brown hen?

These terms tend to drift in meaning if enough people use them. Yes, mottled brown hen saddle ( or often just "back") feathers ( although a saddle is not the same as a back)is the correct description for the saddle you have there. The predominant colour is used to describe the main colour ,"brown" in this case, and the mottling describes the mottling!

The rachis is the feather stem. The dark stripe up the centre of a greenwell feather is known as the "list".

Some hen feathers are barred instead of mottled, and in that case would be termed "barred ginger" ( or whatever colour they are). The term "grizzly" has also now morphed to mean a black barred feather. It originally referred to the barring itself. Thus a "Grizzly" or "Grizzle" cape is barred but it may have any base colour. "Ginger Grizzle" for instance. There are some descriptions like "Creel", and a few other which define specific colours and effects.

Some examples of mottled saddles;

http://www.lathkill.com/shop/index.php?categoryID=749

and other descriptions.

Some other info on hen hackle. http://globalflyfisher.com/staff/petti/garage/hen/

TL
MC

[tie2fish]

Nice link to Lathkill ... I noticed on that page an entry entitled "Speckled Greenwells" where the same error in terminology appears to have used . Thanks for clarifying this for me, Mike.

[Mike Connor]

The term "Greenwell" has only been in use since about 1950, because that was the feather used on a "Greenwell's Glory" and it became common usage. The original term is "Light Furnace". or "Pale Furnace".

There are excellent plates and descriptions of various colours in Frank Elder's "The Book of the Hackle" Published 1979 ISBN 7073 0223 4 Scottish Academy Press.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_seeal ... 1321993305

This book is considered the "Bible" of hackle colours among other things.

Mr Elder died in December 1977 his manuscript was already at the publishers and his son Ian Elder managed to get it finally published.

Unfortunately I can not post the plates here, that would be a breach of copyright.

TL
MC

[Mike Connor]

Nice link to Lathkill ... I noticed on that page an entry entitled "Speckled Greenwells" where the same error in terminology appears to have used . Thanks for clarifying this for me, Mike.

That is not an error, that really is a speckled "greenwell" hackle. The base color is light furnace, and the feathers are speckled.

http://www.lathkill.com/shop/products_p ... G_6964.JPG

Feathers with this colouration are "Greenwell" ( Light furnace) feathers, regardless of where they come from;
http://www.troutlure.net/assets/images/ ... age775.jpg

If they also have speckles on the red/ginger/gold tips then they are "speckled greenwell". The correct term would normally have been "light rusty furnace". But as I wrote the term "Greenwell" is now commonly used for light furnace feathers.

These descriptions can be very complex and confusing. I will try and post some useful info on the matter shortly.

TL
MC

[tie2fish]

I just knew I shouldn't post this fly !

[Mike Connor]

I just knew I shouldn't post this fly !

These are Whiting hens;

I would call this "Mottled brown"

http://www.jimsflyco.com/myimages/WBHS% ... 0Brown.jpg

They call it "March Brown".

This is "Mottled grey"

http://www.jimsflyco.com/myimages/WBHS% ... 20Grey.jpg


They use different descriptions to many traditional colours. This is a furnace or "Greenwell" cape, but they also call it "March Brown";

http://www.jimsflyco.com/myimages/WBHC% ... 0Brown.jpg

Other dealers and dressers use other descriptions. All this just adds to the general confusion. Also makes it impossible for people who are used to these descriptions to dress a lot of the older patterns, because they are completely different.

TL
MC

[willowhead]

actually Bill, "i" just knew you should post this fly..........then you suggested doin' just that at my site.....and i came back with, why not do it at both sites.
it's allllllll...........comming back to you now...........am i right..........?
bottom line, i'm SOOO glad you did...........Mike is amazing..... and so are you.

sure is nice to have a day to sleep in late...................little thumb on nose with wiggly fingers emoticon...........lmao OH! and your fly is SMOKIN' HOT!

I've got a bunch of those bleeched and dyed peacock sticks in allllllll the colors.............LOVE the stuff.

[hankaye]

Howdy All;

I just knew I shouldn't post this fly !

These are Whiting hens;

I would call this "Mottled brown"

http://www.jimsflyco.com/myimages/WBHS% ... 0Brown.jpg

They call it "March Brown".

This is "Mottled grey"

http://www.jimsflyco.com/myimages/WBHS% ... 20Grey.jpg


They use different descriptions to many traditional colours. This is a furnace or "Greenwell" cape, but they also call it "March Brown";

http://www.jimsflyco.com/myimages/WBHC% ... 0Brown.jpg

Other dealers and dressers use other descriptions. All this just adds to the general confusion. Also makes it impossible for people who are used to these descriptions to dress a lot of the older patterns, because they are completely different.

TL
MC

If the names of colo(u)rs can confuse Mike Connor and Bill, think what it's doing inside my head. Aside from bouncing off the empty hallway walls... (chuckeling alot)
I used to have a ballcap that said "Confussion runs thru the hallways of my mind,... feeling compleatly at home..."
Still applies. Poor ol' hat got knocked off oneday while I was bush-hogging got all chewed up and spat out before I could stop the machine...

hank