Questions, questions, questions .....

[Hans Weilenmann]

Lance,

The reason for my question, and why I requested it clarified, is that anglers today should be, and generally are, as concerned about producing durable flies as earlier anglers were. The fact of the matter is that modern threads, and some of the synthetic dubbings (which, btw, I use rather sparingly - generally more favoring the mixed textures and hues of natural material - un-dyed as well as dyed), as well as certain techniques such as split-thread, enable us to produce flies which are near indestructable.

In many ways we live in the golden age of flytying - with material choices and access to information unrivaled in history.

Cheers,
Hans W

[tie2fish]

One comment, if I may, about the term "noodle" when applied to dubbing technique: I believe that the "noodle" to which Hans was referring (please correct me if this is incorrect, Hans) is the result of twisting dubbing fibers around the tying thread using one's thumb and finger(s). This is the first technique I learned, and it serves well for most body shapes using most dubbing materials. However, the first time I actually heard the term "noodle" applied to dubbing was in a video featuring Polly Rosborough, in which he demonstrated how to create a strong, somewhat bulky body with a segmented appearance that he susequently roughed up using (believe it or not) using a hacksaw blade to produce a rough or fuzzy nymph.
In this technique, leave the tying thread hanging at the point whe you wish to start the body. Then put an adequate amount of the dubbing in the upturned palm of one hand and "roll" it back and forth with the fingers of the other hand until you create an elongated "noodle". Tie the end of the noddle onto the hook shank with a copuple of wraps, form a dubbing loop that is an inch or so longer than the "noodle", and advance the thread up the shank to the point where you want the body to end. Then grab both the loose end of the "noodle" and the thread dubbing loop with your hackle pliers and spin them until you get a nice tight strand. This can then be wound up the hook shank in touching turns, creating a segmented body that will withstand considerable abuse. Once you get the hang of this procedure, you can experiment with distributing the loose dubbing in your palm so as to create a tapered "noodle" when you roll it.
I use this technique primarily when I wish to end up with a relatively thick, fuzzy body. It also works fairly well with hard-to-handle materials such as seal or llama fur that resist being twisted onto the tying thread.

[CreationBear]

It also works fairly well with hard-to-handle materials such as seal or llama fur that resist being twisted onto the tying thread.

That seems like a refined technique--the CITES compliant seal we have here in the States and my ball-peen hammer collection have made for a bad combination as of late.

[Hans Weilenmann]

One comment, if I may, about the term "noodle" when applied to dubbing technique: I believe that the "noodle" to which Hans was referring (please correct me if this is incorrect, Hans) is the result of twisting dubbing fibers around the tying thread using one's thumb and finger(s).

It is. I will give up the term gladly for a better one. As long as we have different definitions, understanding, baseline - it will just only serve to confuse, not clarify.

Perhaps I should just refer to it as: twisting dubbing between thumb and finger around the working tying thread, in order to have the dubbing strands interlock, and form a cylinder which may have tapered ends, and which can be slid up the thread.

In case of the application of wax onto the thread this sliding up the thread ability will be severely hampered, of course.

Cheers,
Hans W

[tie2fish]

Hans ~ Please do not misunderstand my intent in the post about "noodles" ... it was not to question your use of the term to describe how you dubbed that particular fly. I only wished to introduce another type of technique, which I understood to be the thrust of Hank's inquiry. The fact that someone else once used that term in reference to a process he employed does not mean it forever cannot be used again, and I have in fact seen/heard it employed by others to describe exactly what you meant.

[DUBBN]

t2f, I knew exactly what you meant. The "other" noodle method you speak of is currently being sold by a fellow from Casper Wyoming. Yes, a technique/method. I believe his name is Orde. No, I have not seen the dvd, nor do I intend to in this lifetime.

The more I study/learn about our sport the more double meaning words seem to crop up. I have always thought of a noodle as applying dubbing by rolling it on to the thread between my fingers. No biggy.

[gingerdun]

So, Hank, how are we doing? We may still have more questions than answers.

Hans, you wrote:

The reason for my question, and why I requested it clarified, is that anglers today should be, and generally are, as concerned about producing durable flies as earlier anglers were. The fact of the matter is that modern threads, and some of the synthetic dubbings (which, btw, I use rather sparingly - generally more favoring the mixed textures and hues of natural material - un-dyed as well as dyed), as well as certain techniques such as split-thread, enable us to produce flies which are near indestructable.
In many ways we live in the golden age of flytying - with material choices and access to information unrivaled in history.

I was surprised that durability was no longer considered so important in that discussion here on the forum. But I think you have touched on an important point, that we do live in THE GOLDEN AGE OF FLYTYING. Maybe not the Golden Age for fishing, but at least for flytying. People are tying strong flies, with great materials. And the instructional information available in books and videos is unprecedented, partly thanks to your Flytier's Page, and your YouTube videos.

Tie2fish, thanks for clarifying the confusion about the term noodle. Terminology is lacking here.

Lance

[Old Hat]

I use them all for specific purposes.

Touch Dub: on small flies and those where I only want a hint of dubbing. I use wax, touch the dubbing to the thread to distribute sparingly, then twist the thread and wrap.

Polly's Noodle: rarely used and only on big flies where I need a thick body.

Han's Noodle: commonly used on small flies and dry flies where I want to cover the thread and or form a body that is dubbed and well segmented.

Split thread: used most on smaller flies where thread build up can be an issue and where I want the body to be scruffy or the thread to slightly show through.

Dubbing loop: used when I want a more scruffy appearance or ruffed up body to the fly.

Premade strand: only when I'm feeling nostalgic as most often I like to work on the vise. However, Lance makes a good point here of when you have a bunch of dubbing mixed up and you want to save it for a later for specific fly, making the premade dubbing strands would be helpful.

I also mix the techniques to make things more complicated for Hank. When I make my flymph bodies I begin with the thread dangling and dub a short Han's Noodle onto the thread with a small amount of dubbing. I then slide the dubbing up to the tie in point. Then I proceed to add another flattened bunch of dubbing over lapping about half of the noodle and lower. This is kept open and not twisted with my fingers on to the thread. Often this is of a different color or mixture. I then form the loop and twist. This gives me a nice taper to the body and transitions color changes naturally and smoothly. This is the technique I use at shows.

Funny thing this year at the shows, I hade premade silk dubbing strands of recipes from the cards in Lance's articles on The Creel website. I also premade some using a hares mask only changing the thread color to show how when done properly you could get many different shades of dubbing with the same dubbing and different thread. I did all the strands by hand on my knee as Is described in the flymph bible. The funny part was people were just as interested in seeing how the dubbing strands were made as they were to see me tie a fly. I got quite proficient at making them on my knee. Proficient enough that I may start premaking the strands quite a bit more.

[Hans Weilenmann]

All these techniques are means to an end, tools in our toolkit. Practice them all, and pick whichever is the best suited with the materials at hand, and the desired result on your retina

Cheers,
Hans W

[Jim Slattery]

The "noodle" has been around for many, many years. Rube Cross used it and explained it in his 1930's book. He would tie one end on the hook and then spin the thread and noodle together then form the body. There are still those who tie in this fashion, Mary Dette Clark comes to mind. This method is far easier to to when tying without a bobbin and a little easier if using a short bobbin when compared to a long bobbin. I personally like this method for bodies on dries.
When using silk thread and desiring a body that is translucent, spikey and will last when catching the big boys then I prefer the Leisenring spun body loop.I am of the opinion that the pant rolled/spun method is the best method for this as it gives an direct appllied friction to the spinning that I feel is important. Applying the pre made spun body to the fly at hand gives you more control of placement and thread wraps, which is critical when tying small stuff . I've tied thorax flymphs down to size 20 using this method.
Having said that I think the key components here are silk, control and the fact that the fly will look "teeth worn" off of the vise and will continue to look so after many larger fish, those over 16 inches.
If someone uses this method for a while they can easily get the flies tying time down into the 6 to 7 minute range.