Not a style I've seen on here..

[Otter]

Very good glassjet.

Yes these style of flies have lasted 100 or so years and will last another 100 - simply because they work when fished correctly. Fly tying and fly fishing are unforunately a sport of fashion and as long as anglers seek the unobtainable magic fly there will be swings from the victorian lavishness to more sombre patterns.

Personally I believe we are at the apex of the second victorian era, and soon the audience will grow tired of the glitz and fritx and indeed will react against the incessant display of patterns that adorns the internet - daily growing more bizaare and most utterly useless and at best one day wonders. Techniques in tying have long since superceeded any requirement to produce a fly to catch fish. In some ways a complete race to the bottom, and we will have worldwide a massive number of talented fly dressers that are to a large degree on any realistic level completely removed from the purpose of why one should tie a fly and what that fly is meant to imitate.

Glassjet wrote
But the internet has blown all that apart. Look at this forum? For us, the hoi poloi, the great unwashed (well me anyway!) there is now no need for geographic isolation. I can take my influences from the best fly tyers in the world! I can even talk to them! But what are the consequences of that? Will it lead to homogenisation? That the strongest characters will convince that their pattern is the definitive way? Will the local traditions survive?

Yes, the strongest characters,and often for commercial reasons will convince others that their patterns and styles of fishing them are best. However they are on a perpetual treadmill. If for a moment they take the foot of the pedal another will pass them out and eventually most will be found out as perpetrators and facilitators of nonsense.

Though it took me a long time to get here the sudden realisation that blindly following the tenets of "the strong characters" for many years was a complete waste of time, and that one is led down one blind alley after another. When it dawns on you that 90% of whats deemed to be essential knowledge is in fact at worst nonsense, at best un-necessary then it makes the application of the remaining 10% that much easier. And ones fishing should improve dramitically both in terms of catching and in enjoyment.

Will local traditions survive? Probably, yes - though well diluted.


Some here and for sure elsewhere are embracing the old ideas with growing momentum, I wonder why ??????

[GlassJet]

An offshoot of what I term the "traditionalist" school of fly design--i.e. starting from old patterns, incremental variation upon variation is deployed, and new fly designs emerge organically. But with the advent of internet communities, this incremental variation is accelerated and internationalized. While the distinct original geographic bloodlines remain relatively few in number, their progeny multiply exponentially. I think I would turn your argument on its head and say we end up with a greater variety of patterns because of this internationalization than you would if the bloodlines remained unmixed.

Nice reply, and I would join you in turning my argument on its head by saying that one could argue that these internet micro-communities may actually serve to preserve the traditional tying. There's you in Canada and me rather closer but still never having been exposed to this method of tying. Yet now we can, if we choose, have a go at tying and so preserving the Irish lough patterns!

But those on this forum are real enthusiasts.

I used an analogy earlier, of the attempt by the French to preserve traditional French culture, when I said:

(If you need any proof of the way mass communication can threaten local cultures, look at how jealously the French guard theirs from the 'Americanisation' by the mass media!)

I am sure that the advent of the internet has allowed micro-communities of, say, French cuisine to be taken to parts of the world it may never have reached before. But again, practised by real enthusiasts. This does not alter the fact for the mass culture, I suspect that they are fighting a losing battle and their high streets are being taken over by the generic, fast food, increasingly globalised culture.

I suppose there are two takes here: one where the internet serves to allow us to form geographically diverse communities, and we happily exchange our traditions, try out each others' whilst remembering their origins and effectively act as knowledge banks for each other. That is a utopian vision.

But there is a dystopian one too. That we are currently living in a golden age of the internet. But that sooner or later, the major media players, new or old, will find a way to tame it and act as gatekeepers to its content.

So, when we turn to the internet to learn new stuff (as we increasingly do) we will tune into Google's 'How to tie flies' channel, make our micro-payment with our handheld, and follow a dumbed down and homogenised view of how to tie a fishing fly. We will all be tying Big Macs!

Ther will be no great conspiracy behind it, it will just happen. Or it might.

It will be interesting to see the contents of the fly box of the average fly fisher standing on the edge of an Irish lough in ten years (or so's) time.

As to fooling trout... more often we fool ourselves into thinking the trout always desire something different

The stories we tell ourselves...

Just a bit of fun speculation.
GlassJet

[GlassJet]

Techniques in tying have long since superceeded any requirement to produce a fly to catch fish. In some ways a complete race to the bottom, and we will have worldwide a massive number of talented fly dressers that are to a large degree on any realistic level completely removed from the purpose of why one should tie a fly and what that fly is meant to imitate.

I would absolutely agree with that, and it is what has put me off internet forums for a long time.

I have a friend who has a young daughter and she and her Mother make jewellery together. She sees me, with all my small tools and paraphernalia, gold beads and the such, and teases me that I am crafting. But I just look at her sternly and say that when I am sitting at the vice, I am hunting, not crafting. And yes, she does come fishing with me from time to time....

Will local traditions survive? Probably, yes - though well diluted.

I was trying to find a link to a book that is new to me, A dictionary of trout flies by A. Courtney Williams. Had a quick look but can't find the text online, so maybe it is not out of copyright yet?

Anyway, the section I was looking for was: IX: On maintaining the purity of the breed. (Page 59 in my edition).

I am sure all of you on here probably know it!

GlassJet.

[Soft-hackle]

All I know is there are pluses and minuses to every publicly accessible medium. Wide spread use of the internet has made the world smaller, for sure, and it becomes saturated with information, often times diluting the content. It also offers those of common interest a place where they CAN get together and maintain a strong interest in things that are historically important, like wingless wet flies.

I do not see so much evidence of dilution that certain aspects of tying certain designs of fly are becoming less distinct, and while there is a chance this might occur, I still see very distinct characteristics between the way, lets say, flies are tied in the western U.S. and the east, which tends to revolve around more traditional roots.

What keeps the art of fly tying alive is the pleasure and process of doing it, and while it is essentially a practical art, it doesn't necessarily have to be. It can stand on its own as an art. Is it tying as it was intended to be? Perhaps not, but in my estimation, many new tiers, today, are too enthralled with this pattern or that and less concerned with what tying is suppose to be, the process of creating an imitation of LOCAL insects. If this phenomenon is what you are speaking of, I agree.

I do not, however, feel that this is caused by the internet alone. It is the product of all modern media, which has made it much more easier to spread new ideas. It is also caused by fly fishermen that are always looking for the ultimate fly, the best fly. Without the desire for "new" patterns, there wouldn't be as many.

Mark

[Roy]

Many good views here.

I feel that traditional flies will always have a following.
Fly dressing almost died out in this country (England) after WWII and on the back of the stillwater fisheries, opening 1960's onwards, has been resurrected.
That was in the realm of the lake fly which has undergone some development in the interim.

Interestingly the rush to the lakes led soon after to a retirement to the rivers as more and more anglers choose to fish streams, thus leading to a review of the old patterns and designs.
That is a good thing as it weeds out the weak.
The strong remain, hence the preservation of traditionals, they always worked and will continue, disasters apart.

As to the development of insect imitations, as Mark says that should be at a local level, whether to prove a local pattern or to test locally an imported fly.
It only matters that the fly works where you are fishing at the time.
Building a fly that works everywhere is no easy job, nor does it even become relevant, you are only fishing one place at a time.

Further - to the design and recipes for the particular insect this thread started with, Ephemera Danica.
These flies and many other recipes and designs are all suited to particular conditions of the hatch, under varying conditions of water colour, cloud cover, ambient light situations and many other pieces of magic which make up the selections for the big Irish loughs (in this case).
Every day is different - no every second is different
Different flies are needed to suit the job of work.
Designs to suit the mode - pulling flies, emergers, dry, egglayers; spent
Recipes to suit the light [sky / light angle / water tint / windspeed(wave)] and whether wet or dry, fat or skinny.
It is all about light

These flies are the results of developments going back hundreds of years, the succsesful ones going on to further testing in future years. It cannot stop, such is the nature of the beast who builds them. There will always be the need to test another.

These traditionals are safe, in good hands; like those Catskill Wets and Dries and our precious soft hackled wets.

Roy

[letumgo]

Great post! It is a pleasure to read the various view points.

[DOUGSDEN]

I'm satisfied just to be on the fringe of these very interesting conversations! Gentlemen, a job well done! Not so much is learned of pattern specifics as is the forming of thoughts and idea's and the overall character of this great sport and it's "characters". Remember our history lessons friends. Great societies are formed and solidified through the joining together or infusion of one culture to another be it through conquest or voluntary means.
The internet brings us all together to share in like passions and ideas (in this case wingless wet flies) without the fuss and mess of conquering each other. Who knows, the next great pattern may come from a combination and culmination of ideas and materials once viewed on this very site.
Lead on gentlemen. It only gets better!
In awe and truly inspired,
Dougsden

[Otter]

Whilst fly tying can stand on its own two feet as a hobby and bring enjoyment to those that partake it really gets really interesting when those flies are designed for a specific purpose and that is to fool a trout in an imitative manner.

Since we are talking about "Irish Wets Flies" thanks to Dennis, it is interesting that as these have developed over the years, fashions have come and gone (usually driven by commercial interests and facilitated by a gullible audience) that the originals survive relatively intact , and ocassionally improved. Same applies to north country spiders etc.. Okay particular anglers may have improved the original dressings by making slight adjustments to suit their local water and their methods of fishing - but the originals remain because they are already at or near the optimum tie for what they were designed for.

I find it quite interesting that often when a pattern from one culture is embraced by another, the new environment spawns 1000's of variants where the local culture trys to impose their fly tying traditions on the import .. but inevitably the pattern is either rejected as a one day wonder or survives in its original form.

If there is one major flaw in presentation of flys on internet forums, it is that such presentation only contains a picture and a list of materials and tying instructions and that may appeal to the hobby fly tier in us. But without any information of what that fly is meant to imitate or how best to fish it, to an angler tier it is about as much use as a picture of a barbie doll. Is it an oversight on the presenter, or is more often than not the case that the presenter has no idea on the how, where when. what ????

Yes the sharing of flys, and tying techniques from the internet and other cultures is fantastic but from a fly tying anglers perspective I am slightly afraid that in some ways the baby is in danger of being thrown out with the bathwater. By that I mean those with real knowledge and real effective patterns and insights and real new ideas to share will be lost in the morass of total rubbish.

Maybe im just getting old

[tie2fish]

Well said, Otter. As you suggest, a considerable amount of what gets posted on the internet is not necessarily created
with fish catching as its primary objective.

[Otter]

Indeed, and the impact of that on beginners beggars belief.